"Here goes our tax money"

Right. So because you met 4-5 refugees living in the US who are actually Bhutanese and not Nepali, we should ignore the fact that Nepal is a poverty stricken nation that banishes millions of its citizens abroad to be at the mercy of other nations. 

Call me arrogant but I'd like to think that there is a greater point that I'm making than just trying to win an argument for the sake of winning an argument.

But then maybe I'm just not as up to date on the news as you are:
http://www.theasiamag.com/patterns/dropping-flies

Dude

Read the topic and the question:

"What is your openion about resettlement program of Bhutanese refugee in different parts of the world? "

We are talking about Bhutanese. You started arguing that all Bhutanese refugees are Nepali and I told you it ain't so, now you are changing the topic to Nepali diaspora issue. You might have a "greater" point but that's not the point in discussion here and not the point I am making.There are other problems in Nepal too, you want to discuss them all here as well??

Right. We can argue semantics all you want. I'm saying that it's a Nepali refugee problem that Nepalese cannot simply write off as a Bhutanese refugee problem to save face. How convenient.

Like I said in my first reply:
"Why ask for discussion of subjects that you do not really want to discuss? The truth is very painful. And we all want to speak the pleasant truth and not face the unpleasant truth. The painful truth for Nepalese in general is more than many of us want to really face. That is why we come to sajha.com for light hearted jokes, comraderie, teasing each other and laughing."

So I'm not surprized by your responses. It's the typical "Nepali politician" responses that fill our air waves. You've learn't well, Kiddo. We need more defenders of the nation like you. That's how we're going to improve Nepal. By saving its face no matter how ugly it looks.

पुग्यो

And by the way my country might be poor not just in economy but also in security, law-and-order etc etc, but do NOT blame her for Bhutanese refugee issues. Given the state of the country we have done our best to accomodate them. There have been mistakes but we certainly cannot starve our own just to make everybody else happy.

Bhutanese refugees are our daju bhais but the problem was created by Bhutan, not us.

So let me summarize the point you’ve made so far:

 

What Kiddo is in essence saying is that the Bhutanese problem has nothing to do with Nepal or Nepalese. No, like most of Nepal’s problems that Nepalese don’t have the ability to take responsibility for, here is one more problem that we need to find a way to blame someone else for instead of taking responsibility. So let’s blame it on the United Nations. Let’s blame it on India.

 

And if Kiddo can’t find anything else to make his point, he pulls the lamest move of pointing at the topic. Anything to defend his weak arguments.

 

After all, we are beggarly victims of a Nation, Nepal, who lives off of the donation of the rest of the world. How could we possibly hold ourselves responsible for this? No. Let’s find a way to pin this on someone else. So whether we can find a little exception like finding 4-5 Bhutanese who are not Nepali or whatever, Kiddo is desperate to shirk responsibility for Nepal needing to take responsibility for her people. Clap, clap, clap. Way to go, Kiddo.

 

 

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Anytime a person tries to summarize an opposing view he/she will unmistakenly exaggerate and give a totally different conclusion. On that note, let me summarize your argument then: The Bhutanese refugees issue is all because of Nepal and Nepal only. Why not also claim that Nepal attacked Bhutan and those refugees got displaced? Or better yet, we meddled in their politics and taught them how to revolt!!

 

So what do you want Nepal to do here? Bhutan migration occurred decades and decades ago (primarily when they were constructing a long highway around 60s and Bhutan House settlement in early 1900s). Mixed with those Nepalese were some indian origin immigrants. However, Bhutan has single handedly targeted refugees of Nepali origin. Nepal has tried to involve Bhutan and India on bilateral discussion but to no avail. US has agreed to help by taking some of those refugees. We could always do more on settlement of those people but tell me are we in a situation of stability to afford such planned settlement?

 

Read below for what we have done and if you still think we caused this issue. If you still think we did, then I have nothing else to say:

 

http://www.bhutannewsonline.com/internationalization.html

 

Call me naive, but somehow I was hoping that our discussion would go more like this:

Homeyji: Nepalese are getting hurt because our nation, Nepal, is weak.

Kiddo: Hmm. You're right Homeyji, I wonder what we could do about it.

Homeyji: I'm glad you're being solution oriented Kiddo. I know it's not just about what one person could do. Perhaps the first thing is for us to atleast agree on the nature of the problem that most Nepalese are suffering from. After all, if even "educated" people like you can't have a civil conversation, what could we possibly expect from the "uneducated?"

Kiddo: Homeyji, do you think we as Nepalese have the humility to discuss these problems without feeling nervous and embarressed and defensive?

Homeyji: Yes Kiddo, I do. I have a lot of faith in the Nepali population. Don't you?

Kiddo: Yes, I suppose you're right. I do too.

.....And so on and so forth.

Ok ok, you're right.

भो अब?

So now that we're friends (or hopefully trying to be) I want to apologize to you if I offended you in anyway. That was not my intention. It is just that I want to have a real conversation that is in our common interest of helping Nepal. And on sajha.com I don't see many productive conversations. It is pretty sad and disgusting what goes on here, considering Nepal's condition. If we can't even set aside our petty differences to talk about Nepal's interest, how can we ask the politicians to?

So now that we are trying to be on the same page, I'd love to hear your take about the nature of the problem and maybe even some ideas on solutions you have. You seem pretty well read.  

 

just wanted to ask about Burmese Nepalese. why did they go there and why were some coming back to Nepal?

कताको कुरो कता लग्या छ छ । Bhutanese refugee को कुरो गर्या हो कि नेपाली पोलिटिकस हो?

I have read somewhere that Bhutan is also a country of immigrants. The Dzonkha speakers settled there migrating from Tibet in about 500 to 300 years ago. Present ruling class Bhutanese are relatively new Dzonkha immigrants. The Khas speakers or "Bhutanese Nepali" people migrated there only in early 20th century.

The Nepalese brought to Bhutan in early 16th century is often mentioned as the beginning of Nepali immigrants in Bhutan. But, it does not seem to be relevant with the present "Bhutani Nepali" crisis because that early-immigrants used to speak "Newar" not "Nepali". I do not know what happened to them. Did they merge with "Dzonkha" or "Nepali" or remain a separate tiny group within Bhutan?

The Dzonkha speakers wanted control over "Nepali" speakers because they were concerned to the  the isolation and lack of cultural integration between Dzonkha speakers and "Nepali" speakers in Bhutan.

"By the 1980s, the (Bhutanese) government had become acutely conscious not just of
widespread illegal immigration of people of Nepali origin into Bhutan,
but also of the total lack of integration even of long-term immigrants
into the political and cultural mainstream of the country. Most of the
immigrants knew very little of the culture of Bhutan and most could not understand any one of the local languages including Dzongkha.
In the rural areas they remained so 'Nepalese' in their culture they
were indistinguishable from the Nepalese in Nepal itself. " (source: wikipedia)

This is the main problem. If you migrate in mass, and try not to integrate within the local community, they will certainly be conscious. If they feel a risk, then they will try to chase you out because they are there before you.

So, I consider that the Bhutanese problem is not a political problem, its a social problem, and it is the problem caused by the lack of respect to local inhabitants, which is a kind of arrogance. Sad to mention it here, the Khas speaking community has that sort of arrogance, and if that continues, they will have similar problem in many others parts of the world where they migrate in a sizable number.

Samarthan,

I completely agree with you. And if you read Germany's history, you will see that the Jews, before the holocaust, had the exact same problem. The Jews felt the need to rely on each other in whatever nation they found themselves. They were like the gypsies who were constantly moving. So they could not rely on the host culture because they did not know when they would have to get up and move again. The Jews, like the Khas, invested in their own instead of the host nation. And many German's felt threatened by that. They felt that the Jews were being unpatriotic to Germany. At least that was the propoganda. The Jews were painted as parasites coming to suck on the host nation for their own gain at the expense of the nation itself. That is exactly how the Khas people are being painted in Bhutan.

Do you disagree?

Homeyji

"If you migrate in mass, and try not to integrate within the local community, they will certainly be conscious. If they feel a risk, then they will try to chase you out because they are there before you."

Samarthanji, I have quoted your openoin above, There is yet no strong evidence of migration of Nepalese to Bhutan,neverthless when we ask senior people they still say nepalese were taken by Bhutan govt(Spiritual ruler Zabdrung Nawang  Namgyel)doing  treaty at the time of Ram Saha regime?The same people were evicted by other immigrant From Tibet who were illegal migrants.It is a very sad story of Bhutanese people, that other illegal immigrants after commig into power  they evicted the legal emmigrants. The fate less bhutanese who  came to nepal , their former home land  could not get same right as other  Nepalese  even after 18  years.Unwillingly despite the effort to return back to country they were compalled to opt third country resettlement program. I am a bhutanese, I feel pain when i went through your comment  upon the topic.It seems like you are aggresive towards Bhutanese people, U represented some nepalese people who contineously hated  these people insted of giving support,

U have never given us the feastful rice, still u dont have to,  but u can do little favour for them  just support them to raise their issue  and make it world wide and build a pressure upon Bhutan.Be sympathetic to us, u may not be because u are never been exiled, spend  life under  leaking plastic roof  and were stiched clothes.Once go and see the refugee camp in Jhapa and Morang and only u can write critical comment ?other wise please dont write whatever comes in your mind ..... 

 

I dont want to say anything because your brain is not working(dimag kharab)u can write whatever u like coz u dont have sense,i dont mind for ur comment

This is the subject worth discussing,this is our  bitter fact  asd the sadest part of our life,If u pretend to forget u cant, this is a history , history is past ,so  present has the intengible relation with the past...

I raised the issue 

Homeyji, I was being sarcastic, simply because I have no interest in engaging in this argument where

the motive is not to get educated and find a solution but is to prove that your theory is right. Your post with dialogues is self evident, obviously it had to be Kiddo who had to say “you are right” blah blah blah.

Let’s stop that discussion.

 

Gadhikari, I wanted to stop posting on this thread as the conversation was going somewhere else, but what you raise is a legitimate issue. I would give more credibility to what you have to say on this topic, as a Bhutanese refugee yourself, than anybody else including myself. I know we haven’t done enough, but do you agree that Nepal herself is going through a very sensitive phase. Our basic rights are not protected and we have seen the biggest herd of migration exiting the country. People chose to work in a place (Gulf countries) where 2 deaths/day are common than stay in their own country. With this civil unrest in the country, we definitely haven’t been able to give enough attention to the Bhutanese plight. I know we could have done better but would you agree that we certainly aren’t the cause of all this like somebody here claims?

 

Nepal has tried to engage Bhutan and India on the policy discussion regarding Bhutanese refugees and those two haven’t buldged. If there is anything we can do to escalate your issue let us know what can be done. We will definitely help our fellow Bhutanese as much we can. I have few Tibetan friends and some Bhutanese friends and when I am with them I never feel like they are from a different country, not just because they all speak Nepali (ok only 2 Tibetan friends do, but all Bhutanese friends are good at it) but also because there is a sense of camaraderie.

Gadhikari ju,
As Kiddo ju has mentioned above, being yourself a refugee, you do have authentic information than any of us commenting in this thread.

In the above quoted line, I should have written

"If you migrate in mass, and try not to integrate
within the local community, they will certainly be conscious. If they
feel a risk, then they will try to chase you out because they are there
before you. If you are strong enough, you will resist or even win up to throne. If not, you may need to surrender or suffer. They won't accept you until they are fearless with you."

This is a general trend for all migrating communities in Asia, Africa, Middle East or even in Americas, not only in Bhutan. 

It is the responsibility of Bhutanese Government and Lhotsampa to keep the record of migration, and find out historic evidences to settle the debate. The stories based on "hearsay" has been the source of trouble in many conflicting claims. Is there any documentation or standing reference about the treaty with Ram Shah?  The Bhutanese officials accept bringing of Newar craftsperson in request, and some architectural evidences support that claim, but Ram Shah was not a king of Newar people in his time. I therefore asked "Did they (the migrated newars) merge with "Dzonkha" or "Nepali" or remain a separate tiny group within Bhutan?" I am expecting your answer.

In the days of traditional governance, all migrations were legal. The concept of "illegal" is not relevant  unless there is documented records or census. For example, Bhutan identifies 1958, to officially separate legal and illegal status of nepali community. Does that mean everyone migrated before 1958 is legal (no matter whether from Tibet, Nepal, India or any other region)? Then, how the people migrated at the time of Ram Shah cannot present the proof of residency?

Nepal is a conservative country when it comes to accepting foreign citizens. It hesitates accepting returning mass of its blood. See the conflict and problems of NRNs, who are not welcome in Nepal even though they flied out of the country with Nepalese passport in hand.

The Bhutanese refugee case has larger complexities. Perhaps there was a bigger political and diplomatic game behind this saga. It is the bitter truth that Nepal failed to meet the expectation of Bhutani Khas speakers. Nepal had plenty of issues to deal with while Bhutani mass in Nepal was suffering. Nepal can not provide feastful rice or comfortable shelter to its own citizen (see how people are living in caves and jungles in some remote parts). Nepal at least provided free shelter and a conducive environment for Bhutanese people to survive, struggle and land in better opportunity. You guys need to be thankful to that rather than spitting sour for your hardship.

I am not aggressive to Bhutani Khas speakers. I have full sympathy and I always wished to have Nepalese government to help solve this problem with adequate support. I personally have fought and debated badly with my own friends who have abused and extort Bhutanese brothers and sisters in their hard days. I do not want to detail my experience of Beldangi region (2055-2057) here, but it hurts me when you blame I am aggressive toward Bhutanese mass in Nepal.

As a student of social science, I am curious to know why Khas migrants have problem with other locals all over the region in and out of the boundary of Nepal. For example, they are disliked by local inhabitants in Bhutan, Meghalaya, Burma, Assam, Silliguri, Dehradun etc. They are also disliked by local inhabitants in Magarat, Tamu-region,  Limbu and Khumbu regions in the hill, including Koch-Tharu-Maithil-Abadh region in Terai and Kathmandu valley within Nepal.

The similarity I see in all those places is none other than "the lack of cultural integration, mutual respect, and assimilation". It is recorded that wherever the Khas community migrates, they kill culture and language of local inhabitants, which is very very wrong. If a lesson is learnt from this entire episode, it would benefit to the entire Khas community. You guys should be the first people to properly analyze and realize what went wrong with you all. Emotional recitals (such as mentioning your days  under  leaking plastic roof and stitched clothes ) would not be helpful at all to understand the true problem and solution.
 
I hope you will answer my questions and try to understand what I am talking about.

Homeyji,

I do not know if it would be fair to draw parallel between Jews and Nepali (I am not sure why the word "Nepali" is used for Khas speakers of Bhutan, I would appreciate if anyone could explain it) in Bhutan.

The Bhutanese Nepali community is the community of hard working and honest people, who love their country Bhutan as much as the Dzonkha speakers do. They have a lot of contribution to develop Bhutan. They founded bed rocks of the modern Bhutan. Unlike Jews, Bhutani Nepali community were not investing or building the nation for their benefit only. Their economic contribution was dedicated for the entire Bhutan.

The problem with them was the social problem. The Dzonkha speakers were threatened by the unwillingness of Nepali community to accept and accommodate their cultural and lingual pride. This seems to be the major point of conflict. But the way they dealt with this problem is not acceptable to me. If the Dzonkha people blame about unwillingness to integrate, I want to ask, what did they (the Dzonkhaa) do to integrate them (the Nepali) before charging the blame against the Nepali?

There is still a large number of Khas speakers in Bhutan, who are not forced to leave out but are forced to mold them into Dzonkha culture. With this refugee problem unsolved, the Dzonkha speakers now have upper hand in Bhutan, and perhaps a dominating attitude toward Khas speakers. The Dzonkha speakers should not try to kill "Khas" language and culture either. I think, it is now the responsibility of Bhutanese refugee to make this issue heard around the world and save their countrymen from the cultural encroachment of Dzonkha.

Samarthan,

Are you insinuating that the Jews were only looking out for themselves in other nations?

Anyway, there is no more need to comment on this thread since Gadhikari in his infinite wisdom arbitrarily deleted posts that he didn't feel were fit for his cause and so this whole thread has lost context. Great way to garner sympathy Gadhikari.

Homeyji,

"Are you insinuating that the Jews were only looking out for themselves in other nations?"

Not precisely if we look in a bigger picture, but other people, who hated them, took the Jews' contribution fulfilling their purpose only. Therefore the jews were painted as parasites. However, the Bhutanese refugee are painted in different way by the Bhutanese government.