September 7, 2004
Dear all:

Namaste and good wishes.

You must have read about Nepalese tragedy in Iraq that twelve of our poor innocent brothers are killed by the Islamic terrorists. May their souls rest in peace. Why such cold blooded murder? What motivates people to do such heinous crime unprovoked? The motivation comes directly from the religion of Islam. Let Quran speak for it self on non-Muslims. The attached article is posted by a group of Iranian intellectuals who cry out against rape of their Persian civilization by Islam. You may visit their web site. A short reference is also given at the end for further information. You may also forward it to interested friends. It is not about hating any body, but about being informed. Thank you very much.

Sincerely, Tilak Shrestha

_________________________________________________________________

Iran Politics Club.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ahreemanxii/page7.html?mtbrand=AOL_US

Quran on Non Muslims!

This is the pure true Islam. Islam is one & there is non but only one Islam & that is the Pure Islam of Muhammad. The same Islam that: Islamic Republic of Iran, Taliban of Afghanistan, Al Qa'ida of Osama Bin Laden, Al Bashir of Sudan, Moamar Khadafi of Libya, Palestinian PLO, Al Hamas, Al Jihad, Hezbollah of Lebanon, & other Muslim Nations, Groups & Individuals around the globe preach & practice. The one & only Islam which exists. Below are the exact quotes & experts from the exact verses of The Quran, Holy Book of Islam. These verses supposed to be words of Allah (God) revealed to Muhammad The Arab Prophet, in places like the famous "Cave" that he used to go in & out of every time that Allah was connecting to him! After the revelations, Muhammad used to inform his close circle of followers Salman Farsi (a Persian Traitor who wrote Quran), Ali (The Fourth Khalifat of Rashedin & CO-Designer of Quran), & Abu Bakr (The First Khalifat of Rashedin) plus a few others, so they would write all these revelations down, add, deduct & design all the material & name it Quran, The Holy Book of Islam! Understand that according to Quran:

"All Non Muslims are Apostates, Atheists & Kafar Infidels, to fight them. & to shed their blood is Halaal & recommended."

"When conquering The Non Muslim's Land, they shall either: Become Muslim, Pay Jaziyah (ransom) to remain in their faith, or be eliminated by the sword of Islam."

Of course there was always the fourth choice for the conquered: To leave one's home & land to exile in to the foreign lands, like the Numerous of The Persian Opposition is now in Exile! The problem with many Muslims & many other Non Muslims who say: "Fundamentalism is not the true Islam", is that they have never actually read the original text of Quran on their own. They have always heard about Mullahs or other religious cleric's commentaries & interpretations of Quran! If one reads Quran on his own, he shall see the reality & the true nature of Quran as it is. The text & scripture is very clear & understandable.

During these days of crisis & uncertainty that the Neo Muslims around the world are trying to defend Islam & do a "Patch Job" & "Cover Up" on all the inhuman murders which Islam has been committed throw the centuries, it is our duty to educate ourselves so then we can educate the others about the true nature of Muhammad, Islam & Quran. Here are some of the quotes from the famous verses of Quran to Muslims & Muhammad regarding how to deal with Non Muslims & how Allah shall deal with them:

Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you, seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong doers. (Quran: Al Ma'idah: 5 - 51)

Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime. (Quran: Al Ma'idah: 5 - 57)

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jaziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued. (Quran: Al Taubah: 9 - 29)

When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. (Quran: Al Anfal: 8 - 12)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land Is: 'Execution, or Crucifixion, or the Cutting and Removing Off of hands and feet from OPPOSITE sides, or exile from the land.' That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." (Quran: Al-Ma'idah: 5 - 33)

Hey Major man don't pollute this sacred forum with your nasty koran verses. As the verse said Allah blinded the non-belivers...it is so true. Look ta the Fuc**Mulims all over the world, they live on the mercy of the non-belivers...so true. Be it in US,India, Nepal, Phhilipines,all over the globe Mulims are trated like dogs thanks to the mercy of Allah.
Look how US killed thousands of Muslims in Afghanistan,Iraq to establish a civilized govt., and the Muslims could not say nothings..oh please don't deport us from your beatiful country to our pighole.

Mulims read and practice stupid Koran of the mideval century and become more stupid and they become more desperate to come out of their pighole country and do anything to go abroad.Ask forfraudulent political asylum to the western governmnet. In India, they live under the mercy of the majority Hindus and when the hindus tell them to go back to Pakistan the
Muslim dog.. they started to cry...oh amnesty help us the Hindu Modi is killing us.

I don't blame the stupid Muslims, I blame that stupid Mohammad who copied Koran from the Jew's Al-torah. A bad copy, I must say, because that stupid don't even understand the Jewish Mysticism called Kabal ah..Instead he compiled all the hatred in the world in Koran and you see how just redaing that stupid koran made the Muslims, religious biggets and their IQ isreduced to less than dogs. Few Pakis and Bangladeshi do good smart accademically due to borrowed Hindu gin.They should give thank to the Hindus that we donated our gins to those low life converts.

Did I mention that how the among those three Abrhamic religion Islam is a xerox copy of everything that Jewish.Like all Jewish male prcatice circumcisision so the Muslim copy it.All the Jews greet each other with SALOM and the stupid Muslim copy it to SALAM.
The Rabbai keep long beard so the stupid Mullah keep more longer. What about Friday the sacred day for the Jews so Mohamad also told his followers to do Namaz on Friday.The biggest one is the PIG, the jewish considered it as unclean so they don't ieat pigs look waht the stupid muslim do... yeah pig is haram to the Muslim. And please read Altorah and you will find out waht a bad xerox is koran.

No wonder the Muslims are becoming the burden of the civilized world.

Om shanti


romesh

Thanx for the info. Those "nasty" koran verses aren't "mine." I merely added to our viewer's attention.

Sali Jee, Namaste and thanks for your comment.

In Mahabharat, Krishna does not ask to murder any body, let alone non-Hindus. No. Matter of fact no where in Hinduism or Buddhism killing is praised. It is about Karma yoga. The battle field is merely a backdrop.

However, that is not the case with Islam. In Islam it is religious duty of every Muslim to convert infidels to Islam. If possible nicely, otherwise by force. You may read in Quran directly. I have posted relevant �shuras� or passages. One of the principal concept in Islam is �darul al islam� - land of light and �darul al harb� - land of strife. All the area under Islam is land of light and others are land of strife. Jehad is fighting infidels to extend the land light into the land of strife. The mechanism of war is simple. First you dehumanize Kafirs, then attack. The Muslim soldiers are brain washed to believe that if they die in battle they will automatically go to heaven and have fun with 72 virgins and 28 young boys. If you win then four fifth of all the loot including captured women belongs to the fighting soldiers. The other one fifth of the loot including women goes to the central leadership. Even Muhammad used to get the spoils including women of defeated infidels.

Karma yoga is quite different. According to the theory of Karma, like the Newton�s third law, whatever you do will come back to you. That is, you have to face consequences of all your actions, good for good, bad for bad, more for more, less for less. We human beings will be acting one act or the other, and consequently we are always bound by the resultant karma. Even if we do good, we still have to face its pleasant karmic reaction, though pleasant one. Thus we are in no win situation. One way to get out of the karmic bond is to control ego through knowledge of self. That yoga is called Sankhya yoga, related to �adwaita� philosophy taught by Lord Shiva. However, it is difficult for ordinary working people to practice. Lord Krishna taught the Karma yoga for precisely those people. CONTINUED

Sali jee, (CONTINUED)
According to the theory of Krishna, when an action is committed by an ego, the karmic reaction will go to the same ego. However, if you do your duty as if you are merely a conduit of Lord then the karmic reaction will go to Lord, not to you. For example, if you imprison a person, then it is a crime. But if you are a jailor on duty, then it is not. For Arjun, a warrior sworn to upheld justice, the duty to fight the battle was clear. However, he grieved to see that he has to fight his own relatives (not non-Hindus). Here Arjun could have simple went along the way of love that he would rather die than fight. That is a valid �way of love� or �Bhakti yoga�. However, Krishna was teaching Karma yoga, not Bhakti yoga. Bhakti yoga is taught by sages like Ramanujam, Tulsidas and others. According to the karma yoga Arjun has to fight. However, he should do that as performing unattached duty �niskam karma�, not for victory or riches or revenge. You may disagree with Krishna and have your own way. It is perfectly fine. The multitude of spiritual ways is the hall mark of Hinduism. You may even criticize Krishna. However, you may do so only after reflecting on what he actually said. There is tons of exegesis on Gita to read.

There is one more important point here. There are many cases of Muslims following Quran and attacking Kafirs, beginning with Muhammad himself. You may read Islamic history how it spread in Iran, Byzantium empire, north Africa etc., and how Iranian Zoroastrians, Syrian Christians ran away to India and found refuse among Hindus. The state of Bihar, named so because of many Buddhist Bihars or monasteries, now it has almost no Buddhists. Because Islamists massacred them off. Only a few monks and nuns escaped to Tibet and Burma. However, you will not find Hindus fighting their cousins, relatives and teachers because Arjuna did so. Evidently, the battle of Mahabharat is understood by Hindus not as an exhortation to fight. THANKS.

Laughing Buddha Jee, Namaste and thanks for your comment.

Let me remind you that the heading of the topic is �Quran on non-Muslims�, that the topic is relevant because of the murder of our twelve innocent Nepalese brother by Islamic militants, and that the main thrust of my argument is the search for �motivation� for such heinous crime. So let us focus on the issue and post only relevant arguments. My posting does not denounce the murderers, let alone Muslims in general. The statements are not mine but from Quran. So where is the stereotyping? The issue is about �motivation.� If you have a better explanation, please do so. That will be appreciated very much. Otherwise why post irrelevant writings. The issues you have raised are important. But you should post with another heading, not here. You charge others being �one sided myopic stereotyping� and go �beyond finding fault with only one religion.� Before you state so, you need to ask yourself following questions. What could be the reason that these people were murdered? Is there any recent cases where Christians, or Hindus or Buddhists killing non-co-religionist unprovoked? Can you quote scriptures of Hindus, Buddhist or Christians where murdering others are given as a part of religious duty? Suppose there is one in Bible, do today�s Christians attack non-Christians unprovoked following such injunctions? Such passages, if exist, will merely be embarrassing part for most of the Christians I know of. You may point out the objectionable Quranic passages to your Muslim friends and see their reaction. They will never agree to consider it in poor taste.

It is true that many Christian evangelists are trying to convert Nepalese to Christianity by inducements and misleading statements. Missionaries are not for understanding or exchange of ideas, but to take advantage of our poverty and backwardness. The essential Christianity is that �all the Christians automatically go to heaven, no matter how evil� and �all others go to hell, no matter how virtuous.� Evidently, this is simply not true. The simple truth is any boy can approach heaven by practicing good heart inside and good deed outside. Whether you are Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew does not matter. These brain washed people believe that only way to heaven is to believe �Jesus is Christ�, an irrelevant and untrue fact. Less said about this nonsense the better. Christian fundamentalism presents a different set of problems. But this is totally different topic. Christian evangelism is a far cry from sleeting throat of innocent Nepalese in Iraq. (CONTINUED)

Laughing Buddha Jee, (CONTINUED)
Can you explain the term Hindu fundamentalism? In case you have hard time, allow me to suggest that there is none. Because, fundamentalism comes only with insisting on a single world view as true and condemning others. But Hindus do have and welcome multiple paradigms. What you refereeing as Hindu fundamentalism is actually Hindu reaction against Islamic and Christian aggressions. This is a social and political phenomenon, not religious. You need to difference between motivated proactive aggressions versus reactive responses; and also between religious doctrines versus social evolutions. For almost thousand years there was genocide of Hindus by Islamists. The mountain �Hindu Koh�, Farsi for �Hindu mountain�, renamed as �Hindu Kush� or �Hindus dead�, because millions of Hindus were massacred unprovoked there. Look at the division of India. Islamists (not Muslims) were not for secular democracy, but for Islamic country. So their loyalty lies not with their own mother land, but with Islamic Ummah. Pakistan and Bangla Desh both are Islamic countries now, where by constitution only a Muslim can be President and Prime-minister. Compare that with India, where the BJP (Prof. Angana Chatterji�s fundamentalists) chose Honorable Abdul Kalam, a Muslim, for President. Please do not hold your breath to see if Pakistan or Bangladesh will have a Hindu for President. Yes, Hindus are reacting back against wanton aggression. Perhaps stories about Kashmiri Pundits, raped and murdered Hindus in Bangladesh, demographic statistics of Hindus in Pakistan and Afghanistan are in order. However, these issues are all irrelevant here. Because, even assuming that Hindu fundamentalists are bad, are you suggesting that some how it would mitigate the crime in Iraq? What is the point? You posted an article by Mr. Angana Chatterjee and listed crimes committed by so called Hindu organizations. Perhaps you should also mention the scriptures which those Hindus were quoting. Are their actions totally unprovoked? Do ordinary Hindus, leaders, priests condone the action? What Indian police is doing about it? Now please do ask same questions in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia.

Let me to tell you a secret. Islam is not really a religion in the sense of ways of spiritual advancement. It is in fact a social engineering and militarization system. And that is the root of most of the problems in Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan. Kashmir, Bangladesh, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Chechnya, Balkans and so forth. Please do not make sweeping general statement that all religions are same and all have similar problems and extremism. That way you are really missing an important point. It is like putting herbivores and carnivores together. The different ways or yoga including Buddha�s teaching is about search for truth and practices of spiritual growth. The Semitic religions are about tribal survival, militarization of society, believing sets of doctrines without questioning and monopolization of the world. Most of the world wars have caused due to the attempt of monopolization, not due to the practices of spirituality. Actually �Dharma� is the correct term to describe Hinduism, not �religion�. Joining a Buddhist Sangha is like going to a community college, joining Islam is like registering into an army. They are apples and oranges. Please keep this distinction clear.

So please do be careful to check relevancy before you post bunch of unrelated writings. It is only red herrings and attempts at obfuscation of the issue at hand. Remember, the issue is �motivation� behind the murder of innocent Nepalese brothers in Iraq. THANKS.

the white man sits back and laughs at people of color fighting each other on their religious differences.. hindus, muslims, and buddhists.. get a clue. it's called divide and conquer.

I fully agree with Pine. Naive Laughing Buddha has little clue the realilties of ISLAM.

Unlike the Quran, our Hindu scripts DO NOT call for the slaying of non-believers. In fact "Hindu" was a label given by the invading moslems from Persia. In a true sense Hinduism is not a religion limited to people who pray to Brahma, Vishnu, or Shiv. Hinduism in essence is a way of life, and anyone who follows the philosophy of "Hinduism" aka Sanatan Dharma is a "Hindu."

Our holy scriptures does not divide the world between Hindus and non-Hindus. We see everybody as the creation of the almighty lord.

On the other hand, Pedophile Muhammad's Quran explicitly divides humans into two categories: the believers and non-believers. Please read the Quran and the hadiths, you will find great faults and its intolerance towards other faiths. Quran is full of hatred, intolerance, and demonic. Furthermore, it contradicts Muhammad's "word of god" many times. Unlike its claim, its the least scientific holy book I've ever read. I have put my Quran where it belongs - garbage bin.

A religion founded by a Pedophile, caravan robbing, slave trading, terrrorist, and a self-claimed prophet, who promised VIRGINS, Homosexual Boys, and unlimited Wine in Heaven, surely must be a cult. That pretty much sums up ISLAM.

as I see it, the killings can remotely be blamed on religion. Yes the insurgents did use Allah and Islam to justify their actions but the political component of those actions cannot be ignored and even worse, cannot be substituted by Islamic verses.
The insurgents had been negotiating with countries and third parties and many hostages were being released. It just happened that they kidnapped those innocent Nepalis. They realized how little nepal's importance was and how there was little they could gain from their release. Dramatic execution would scare parties who would then be more serious about ransom for more "important" hostages.
yeah, they sure used Islam to justify their actions but it is ignorant to ignore the political component and hate The Quran and/or all the Muslims around the world. If what they did was a relgious action (as they would see it, at least) then we should be seeing executions like these all the time. the context and the timing is important. And, if such brutality is unique to the Muslims, how do you explain the Crusades? the ethnic cleansing happening in Africa, lets say... but oh right, we won't talk about that because Bush never talks about it and CNN never seems to mention them. It's easier to quite the Quran out of context, ignore how EVERY religion uses harsh language for non-believers and hate all the Muslims.

Dear Kaali Jee, Namaste and good wishes.
I agree with you only partially. It is true that in the hay days of European colonization the divide and rule was a potent tool. However we miss three important points here: what and why the religious differences are there to be exploited; how it is relevant today; and how it is related to the murder of Nepalese in Iraq.

As I wrote before we should not put apples and oranges together. Hinduism, Buddhism. Taoism etc. are the religions about methods of spiritual advancements. Semitic religions including Islam are about social discipline and militarization. The former group of religions is like joining college to get education. The second group of religion is like joining army. For example, in Nepal we go to Swoyambhu, Pashupati temple, Narayan temple etc. routinely. Even in China, Chinese people go to Taoist or Buddhist or Confucious temples as they please. Now try being a Christian for 2 days, a Muslim for 3 days and a Jew for 2 days of a week. You will be be appreciated to say the least. Because it is like being a soldier of US marine for 2 days, Russian army for 3 days and so forth.
To say that Hindus and Muslims are always fighting in India is really committing an injustice. You are putting cops and crooks in the same footing. It always has been Islamic aggression and Hindu resistance. The thousands of temple been demolished and millions of Indians being killed and converted by force is not a fiction but reality.

You really do not have to preach tolerance to us. We are for tolerance, coexistence and brotherly love. What you need to do is talk to Muslim brothers if they are for same, condemn anti-infidel passages in Quran, and practice secular democracy in their countries. To bring an issue of unrelated racism and colonization is merely an attempt at obfuscation. THANKS.

Dear Maximum Jee, Namaste and good wishes.
Let us make our opinion on facts not on wishful thinking. As far as the murder of Nepalese are concerned, let the horse speak with his own mouth. The statement by Army of Ansar al Sunna - We have carried out the sentence of God against 12 Nepalis who came from their country to fight the Muslims and serve the Jews and the Christians believing in Buddha as their God. We may not be, but they are clear.

I do take your opinion well that we human beings are complex and so many factors are in play. We cannot ignore the political dimension of the event. For example a proud nationalist Iraqi may see the US presence in Iraq as foreign occupation and even may resist. That is a legitimate political agenda. In that case, the person will be appealing to Nepal or for that matter to other nations that they want to be free from occupation. In the same token they also will be very much interested in the success of the election to be held in Iraq, though sponsored by Americans. The groups like Ansar al Sunna are in fact opposed to election. Because they are not nationalist, but Islamist.

When did I say that ethnic cleansing or Crusade is a good thing? But how is it related to the event of concern. They are different issues all together. Can you tell me how long ago the last Crusade took place? Is there any Christians countries today planning for another Crusade? Am I quoting Quran out of context? Please do educate me. You may borrow Quran from the local library and please point out to me. Please also provide quotes from Hindu\Buddhist\Taoist\Confucious and other scriptures where harsh words are used against non-believers. Please do back up your statements with facts. I will be grateful. THANKS.

Mr .Romesh

I am not here to support muslims or any other religion but u look to me one of those shivasnea or VHP men yaar. Who F--Ks nepalese people by giving shelter to maoist and then shout hinduism loudly. man first go and try to stop the voilence in Nepal what u know? merely shouting is not enough, what have u seen? Ur so called VHP says maoists are controlled by china. a biggest joke and then shout we are the true representative of hindus around the world.
to all the people out here we are staying thousands miles away from home country beware of these people who are the true supporters of double face VHP, these people rae the one who have helped massacre 10000 poor nepalese in nepal .MUh me ram ram bagal me churi.

pine77,
your post reinforces my point. The rebels used relgion to justify the killings. Now, we can either try to scrutinize the situation and try to see wha the REAL reason behind those killings is or we can just listen to what these terrorists say and believe them. I, for one, would do the former.

The analogy with the crazy Christian Crusades is very apt in this context. You are trying to claim that Islam and Islam only, is inherently polluted and drives people towards killing. My point is, don't blame the religion, blame the people. And don't make the mistake of hating the whole religion because some are able to justify their heinous crimes using religion. Those crusaders justified those massacres using the bible and at the same time there are millions of missionaries around the world that are devoted to social service and they too believe that they are following the bible. the take home message being, don't hate the religion, blame the misinterpretations.

manish 321 pointed out shiva sena, what more do i need to say? Think about it, is it not possible to justify violence against non-hindus by using the Gita? The book starts with Arjuna saying that he thinks killing is wrong and throughout the book, Krishna pressures him into lifting up his bow and fighting and lo! that's what happens in the end. Arjuna goes out on a killing spree, thanks to Krishna's wise words. But, see how Gandhi, who lived by the same Gita started a non-violent revolution that drove the British out. The take-home message, again, is that there is very little inherently wrong with religion and religious verses, blame the people who interpret it differently to justify their crimes.

Never read anything intellegent and thoughtful like Pine ji's postings.. How come they don't get posted in Nepali magazines.. because they are real , easy to understand and very logical??

I am spellbound MR. pine.........really enjoyed it. I hope that laughing buddha got his answer...........such a book freak and book smarty........

way to go mr. pine...

Dear Maximum Jee, Namaste and good wishes.
Thanks for your response. However, you deliberately or otherwise missed my point and mis-quoted me. You do not have to agree with me and your criticisms are welcome. However, please do not mis-state me. Let me illustrate by commenting on your response.

�� Your post reinforces my point. The rebels used relgion to justify the killings. Now, we can either try to scrutinize the situation and try to see wha the REAL reason behind those killings is or we can just listen to what these terrorists say and believe them. I, for one, would do the former�.�

No, my posting does not reinforce your point. Matter of fact it is opposite. I agree with you and let us scrutinize the situation and see what the real reasons behind those killings are. I am incapable of going inside the brain of the terrorists. All I can do is look at the facts in the ground and make the best guess. The facts in the ground are: Quran does ask muslims to kill infidels. I have given quotes from Quran. The terrorist states that they killed Nepalese laborers because they are the worshippers of Buddha. I have also given their statement. There is a long history of Muslims attacking kafirs because of the Islamic religious requirement of the Jehad. You may read it in any standard history book. You are saying that the terrorists have other motives and using Islam as the pretext. What motives that might be? I like to know how you came to that conclusion. What facts and logic are you basing your opinion on? If I understand you correctly, you are saying that those terrorists are merely trying to scare westerners by murdering poor defenseless Nepalese. This is purely conjecture in your part; and you do ignore what actually they state. Do not you?

�� The analogy with the crazy Christian Crusades is very apt in this context. You are trying to claim that Islam and Islam only, is inherently polluted and drives people towards killing. My point is, don't blame the religion, blame the people. And don't make the mistake of hating the whole religion because some are able to justify their heinous crimes using religion. Those crusaders justified those massacres using the bible and at the same time there are millions of missionaries around the world that are devoted to social service and they too believe that they are following the bible. the take home message being, don't hate the religion, blame the misinterpretations �.�

No, the analogy is not correct. I have given the quotes from Quran against infidels. Please back up your statement by giving passages from Bible where non-Christians are to be attacked. I am against Crusade. It is the result of mainly following three factors: 1. Christianity�s delusion of being the one and only true religion, 2. Islamic aggression against Christian world, and 3. availability of ignorant European masses who can be led to war with inducement of free salvation and loot. However, the Christianity or Bible itself does not preach war. Islam does. Even if Christianity preaches hate, it does not make Islam good. It merely makes both religions bad. So what is your point? By the way, the missionaries are not doing social service for its own goodness sake. They are not Scout or Red-Cross members. They are using social service as inducement toward conversion. Therefore their basic motivation is not pure. You may read the Oath taken by Jesuit priest. It is shocking to say the least. It is available in web site. If you have problem finding it, let me know. I will send you a copy.

I am not preaching hate against any body or any religion. Where did I write so? However, I am for critical thinking and cool analysis of the facts. If you have not read Quran, perhaps you should. If you think I have posted those offensive passages wrongly or out of context, please do correct me. Given the facts I know of, I do conclude that Islam does teach attacking non-Muslims. And matter of fact I do not blame people. As I wrote before, my concern is not about blaming any body but to analyze the motivation. Because the individual Muslims are random factors and the Islamic political agenda is a constant factor. I would rather reflect upon the constant and over riding factor than chase randoms. Let me give you an example. German people are one of most productive people in the world. Their contribution in art, science, technology and philosophy are well known. However, the Germany started second world war and millions of people died. Do I say Germans are bad people? Will that serve any purpose? I think not. However, I do criticize the ideology of the Aryan racial superiority and will fight against it. Same here. (CONTINUED)

(CONTINUED)
��. manish 321 pointed out shiva sena, what more do i need to say? Think about it, is it not possible to justify violence against non-hindus by using the Gita? ... �

You are not doing yourself any favor by quoting Mr. Manish. His posting was quite incoherent and foul one. Yes, you do need to elaborate the point you are making. Can you paraphrase what Siva Sena said and why it is relevant here. Can you quote relevant passages from Shiva Sena�s publication or web site. What is your point by waving the flag of Shiva Sena? If you are saying that Gita justifies violence against non-Hindus. Then forget Shiva Sena and please give the relevant passages from Gita itself. Do not work too hard. There are none.

��. The book starts with Arjuna saying that he thinks killing is wrong and throughout the book, Krishna pressures him into lifting up his bow and fighting and lo! that's what happens in the end. Arjuna goes out on a killing spree, thanks to Krishna's wise words. But, see how Gandhi, who lived by the same Gita started a non-violent revolution that drove the British out�.�

Here you go again. You are the master of misquoting. Please read my response to Mr. Sali on Sept. 20. Krishna�s teaching is about Karma yoga, not about killing spree. When did Arjuna go on killing spree? He fought against armed Maharathis like Drona, Ashwasthama, Karna. However, the Mahabharat war itself is merely a backdrop. The message is about the Karma yoga. If you do not want to reflect on the core message of Krishna, that is your prerogative. Your ignorance hurts you, not me. It may be shocking to you but Mahatma Gandhi was not practicing Karma Yoga � Niskam karma. Because he has personal attachment for India�s freedom. He was actually practicing Sankhya yoga. The knowledge that we are all connected and whole universe is one. That is if Gandhi rise moral stake visa vie British empire then there is natural force like Gravity which will compel British to respond in higher moral plain. If he seats down in a corner, fast and suffer; then the British empire also will suffer.

��. The take-home message, again, is that there is very little inherently wrong with religion and religious verses, blame the people who interpret it differently to justify their crimes�.�

If you want to stick your head in sand, it is your privilege. They say if you do that then some other end will be exposed. Matter of fact I do not blame the people, but the ideology which makes people do bad thing. Because people come and go, but the ideology remains. If you do not want to read Quran, Islamic history of aggression and statement of Ansar al Sunna; that is your prerogative. But do not preach us that Islam does not preach hatred and war against infidels. Islam does.

As I wrote in response to Mr. Kali, you really do not have to preach tolerance to us. We are for tolerance, coexistence and brotherly love. What you need to do is talk to Muslim brothers if they are for same, condemn anti-infidel passages in Quran, and practice secular democracy in their countries. May their responses, if not mine, illuminate you. THANKS.

Everything in this discussion board can be summed up in two sentences: "The Empire's economic and foreign policy is the root cause of all evils in third world countries. If at all, it has very little to do with religion!!"

What about this Maulawis' saying this
ALLAH will still forgive a man who has murdered 100 people if he doesn�t repent then he will get his bit of the punishment for what ever he did, remember ALLAH is the All-Merciful. The Worst of all crimes isn�t killing 100 people but innovating a lie against ALLAH (prescribing partners to ALLAH)

Dear All: Namaste and good wishes.

Thanks to friends who posted in this thread: Major, Yours dipens, Gatta, GPKoirala, Sali ko bhena, Laughing Buddha, Thugged out, Money minded, Romesh, Kaali Rani, Maximum20, Manish321, Dyamn, DC Girl and Swaati Thapa.

I hope no minds and takes personally whatever we write here. Please remember it is about finding truth through discussion. If I offended any body,I do apologize. THANKS.